My view on this is the same as Butty. I think people should adhere to the terms of course, but after they have done this they should be free to do as they please. This means no trying to withdraw early without completing rollover, opening multiple accounts with the same book, no betting both sides at the same book or using multiple books in the group to circumvent limits, etc. As Butty says, if someone then withdraws all their funds it is up to the book if they wish to ban them from future offers, although they should notify the player of this I would have thought.
I don't think there's much sense in saying players should feel obliged to carry on playing well past the rollover requirement in order to keep getting good deals, because then the very fact that you have to play well over the rollover means that the deals are no longer so good anyway. Would people have deposited for a deal which had a provision that players must complete the 7x rollover, plus maintain an active balance and x amount of play before being able to withdraw y amount of money? Maybe, but this should really be clear when depositing, so they can decide whether the deal is as appealing. Basically, if players are expected to keep on playing even after they've completed the terms and to remain active then this should really be part of the terms, otherwise the terms become of little use.
It's all very well to say that we should carry on playing in the hope that by showing some goodwill we can get another reload bonus, but lets be clear that in doing this its really just "cover play" and that its not really being done out of genuine loyalty. That's not to say some people don't carry on playing out of genuine loyalty, just that if you are only doing so in order to qualify for future reload bonuses it's not.
I mean no disrespect to anyone, and accept that my opinion probably differs from that of others here, but am just stating my views on the matter.
P.S. Obviously we and the "other forum" are not so different in terms of advantage play and imo there's not really much point in pretending that we are, otherwise we should all just jump to a "pure" gambling forum like SBR. The difference is that the "other forum" occasionally swamps offers for small books and has a tendency to phone up / email hassling CS about the offer repeatedly, or to do entirely "risk free" stuff like signing up and taking the casino bonus but not wagering any of their funds at all.
It isn't exactly unheard of. For instance TheGreek expect you to play well over your rollover if you want to cash out all your money. If you don't then they will take the bonus money away. Same with XLbet.
Originally Posted by dark_knight
I am pretty sure that using the hit-and-run kind of strategy will quickly get you bonus banned, especially when you are taking a uber special and generous bonus from Spooky. It would be ashame to lose the opportunity to get good reload offers from
I just feel that if you are profiting from the bonus then, assuming the book is on the ball, they'll ban you from the bonus fairly soon. Perhaps yes, you can stay under the radar a while longer by not hit-and-running but they'll get you eventually. Don't really think you can simultaneously be the kind of player a book wants while making profit out of bonuses
Originally Posted by Nintendo2k
Another P.S. I'm not trying to sound like a heartless moron these last few posts - I really do appreciate Spooky bending over backwards to help with these bonuses. I'm just trying to be realistic, and have the same concerns dhanwell had earlier on in this thread, that perhaps Spooky is simply targeting the wrong types of players. It's just my opinion, and I don't think it would be fair to Spooky to be dishonest about it.
Perhaps no longer "as good" , but these deals come with a 7x rollover of just the deposit , not deposit+bonus that many other offers do.
I don't think there's much sense in saying players should feel obliged to carry on playing well past the rollover requirement in order to keep getting good deals, because then the very fact that you have to play well over the rollover means that the deals are no longer so good anyway.
If you do a quick comparison of the other offers out there , I cant find anyone even close to this - certainly not for reloads. So you keep a bit in there and play occasionally - no longer the perfect deal, but still better than anything else ..... unless you never reload of course.
Everyone has their own way of doing things. I cannot argue with Dark knight - if you meet the conditions of the offers you have done nothing wrong per se - but as in life in general, something doesn`t have to be illegal to be wrong.
Maybe its just me - I`m very old fashioned when it comes to these sort of things, but Spooky has made it as clear as he can that doing this is reflecting badly on him .If it was me , I would feel bad about that and feel I had let him down. I`m Old School.If it led to the offers being withdrawn, I would then feel I had let all of you down.
Being part of a community should mean helping each other as best we can - we share our knowledge and our thoughts to everyones advantage.
Way of the world Spooks - you and and the book could be gone tomorrow who knows ?
... Is this not exactly what the story of the Golden Goose was about ?
Like going to an all-you-can-eat restaurant every night and eating til you get sick every night - you sure get your moneys worth , but you dont feel so good afterwards . Enough people do the same thing, that restaurant is history and no one gets to enjoy it.
I mean no criticism of anyone here - I think debate is good for the Soul.
Probably going to be 2 main pools of thought on this, falling into the following 2 camps -
1 those who ask "what can I get from the Community"
2 those who ask "what can I give to the community"
Who is is to say that either group is any better than the other, both groups will have their own selfish reasons for being in the community in the first place
As Shakespeare wrote "`tis in ourselves that we are thus, or thus"
I think generally most people that use and post on this forum and thread regularly are probably treating the offer as it is....a very good chance to get a bit extra for your money and not abusing it as they not only want it ton continue for themselves but for others also. However, if you look on the front page of the forum at 8am there are over 400 people using the site, many of whom probably never, or hardly ever bother posting and just come on here to pick up offers....not saying these are necessarily the people who are abusing the offer or they shouldn't be able to view the threads etc but when posting such good offers on a forum that is accessible by so many unfortunately the sad reality is people are going to abuse it and look out for only themselves.
Just my opinion and this thread just reminds me of many other smaller offers which get pulled because of these kind of people. As I said in a previous post people should think about the long term effects their actions are having not only on their own accounts but in the long term scheme of the promotions...
I'd just view it as an 8 or 9x rollover rather than 7 and stick a few wagers in afterwards for a month or two - at the very least you can use them to dutch another book and you might lose a couple of quid as opposed to using pinny. It's a deal which is untouchable so seems mad to jepordise future reloads here or any other book for the sake of a few quid.
On what many would think is purely a gambling forum (SBR), as well as an odds comparison tool, they've had a page explaining how to extract risk-free profit from free-plays along with their own hedging calculator for a long time now. Now I'm not saying everyone on SBR is an advantage player but certainly the tools are provided for you to become one! Of course, signups originating from there may be au fait with US-facing sites and will have learned from experience that withdrawing as soon as the roll is complete may not breach terms but does breach the unwritten rules (etiquette) and can leave you just as banned as if you had breached their written terms.
Spooky's links and adverts here are posted on a site with the motto 'why gamble when you can win?' That is not to say no-one here gambles because they do. But it is an advantage play site and, by default, a proportion of players will not be depositing looking to stick around past rollovers to place bets for fun. For many, any bets placed beyond rollovers would either be 1) 'cover bets' to appear 'recreational' and by default, the books don't want players appearing to be 'recreational' they want them to actually be 'recreational', or 2) hedging bets against another book where they've taken a bonus and they are extracting profit from it.
For AP'ers taking these bonus, it may make some sense if you know your money is in a pretty safe book to perhaps hedge a couple of other bonuses against the book after the roll and then leave a % of the balance behind when withdrawing then repeat with a couple more hedged bonus bets. You're then 1) betting beyond the roll, 2) eating into a roll somewhere else while increasing the chance of 'losing' some money back to the book you've just withdrawn from thus increasing the chance of a reload in the future... of course you could keep winning there but there you go.
If you have an vetted affiliate system whereby the offer is open only to known clients or hand-picked clients who have shown they not only conform to rules but also undersand, and display, the kind of etiquette referred to within the thread, then there is a level of control. If it is seemingly available to anyone, then a proportion of players will not be the kind of people you or the books want. Right or wrong (morally?!), the players have the ability to choose to play the bonus how they wish within the stated rules and to withdraw at any point after completing the roll. As Butty says, the books have the ability to limit players and ban them from promotions/altogether. Spooky has his affiliate links on this site and has hopefully seen a decent increase in signups who aren't all going to be 100% hit and runners and people here have the opportunity of a bonus. In the end, individuals are responsible for individual actions whether that be where we choose to seek new players or how, as players, we choose to play at books or through affiliates. No need for apologies afaics.
Wouldn`t disagree with much of that musicbox but -
individuals should also be aware that their actions MAY have much wider consequences for other people as well. They may not care of course -for that appears to be the society we live in these days).
individuals are responsible for individual actions
There is a corporate equivalent to this of course.
There are Companies out in the big wide World who buy up other Companies for the products they produce , not because they like the Company itself.
Asset strippers are not well liked but they break no rules.
In their purest form , asset strippers will buy a company , sell off all the real estate, make the workforce redundant and manufacture the product themselves using their own workforce.
Nothing wrong with that......well, not unless you`re one of those made redundant of course.Just ask any of the Cadburys workers in Keynsham what they think about Kraft for example.
What I`m saying is , dont just be reponsible - be aware.
Yup cairnx, and I certainly wouldn't disagree with that Just like in any walk of life, the consequences of an individual's actions can, and does, produce issues for both themself and others - in this case, players, affiliates and the books.
Not to endorse or frown upon any particular actions at all, my main point is that I just think we have to be realistic in acknowledging that many people (here and elsewhere) make a living or supplemental income from the gambling industry yet do not bet recreationally, do not seek anything but value odds and do not deposit unless there are bonuses to be had. It is almost to be expected therefore that such players will not appear like the recreational player the book wants the agent/affiliate to send their way... but they do have measures to protect themselves somewhat at least. And as some AP'ers may frown on AP'ers who hit and run, some gamblers frown on Ap'ers for taking from the industry and then then the Daily Mail frowns on the gamblers with headlines like 'SHAME Of Gambling ADDICT Who Stole Pig, Painted It Black and Rode It To Victory In the Gold Cup As We Reveal He Has 14 Children By 20 DIFFERENT MOTHERS, Most Of Whom Are FOREIGNERS!" and then anyone with a brain frowns on the Daily Mail. This is based on a government statistic of course, not my opinion.
That said, and moving away from the feeling that everyone asking for a withdrawal on completion of a roll is an out and out hit and runner... I do believe it's a bit of a shock to the system for some when moving on to US-facing books. Dave in New Jersey may have played at Book X for 3 years and be confident about being Fedexed his payments, but for someone used to playing in the UK/Euro region, it's not likely they'll start with the same level of understanding or trust of the book yet here's this really nice offer from Spooky (and I'm only being playful here because it is rather cool to be known as Spooky after all, but some might find that a little too mysterious!). So it doesn't surprise me (and shouldn't surprise the industry) to know a percentage will meet the roll and withdraw simply based upon that inherent concern for their balance plus payout restrictions and likely time of having a balance in the book - of course if you're more into cushioning the blow and thinking about Spooky and the future of your account at the book, you might play on or take a partial withdrawal as we've said. But I can understand why people don't.
Reading these posts above I can't really find much to argue with either. Given that Spooky was kind enough to get us this deal and because I don't want to adversely affect him, I'm redepositing and will continue to play there for a while longer. I wouldn't normally care but I realise that Spooky, an individual, has gone out on a limb here. Slight worry is that if I build up a big balance and end up withdrawing then that will be even worse, but at least I'm active.
Should also get a chance at some more March Madness brackets if I'm not too late for it, not that I have a clue what to pick really (just treating it like a fun lottery!).
Edit: I'll be honest and say that initially the whole "Spooky" thing was a bit mysterious and so, as musicbox says, I was a bit apprehensive about running up a large balance. Does seem like any concern was unfounded now.