Originally Posted by Spooky
It is my personal opinion that your point above is flawed.
Let's take a so called "recreational" player - lets say that person gets a thrill out of taking on the bookie and wants to try and win. He is stuck in there, unable to withdraw, sweating it, he may bust and lose all of his deposit.... but if he makes it to the end - great! The first thing he is going to want to do is withdraw his winnings.
Lets look at it another way - say you went to a brick and mortar casino for a night out. The roulette wheel loves you tonight and you win a fortune. Do you;
a) Collect your winnings and smile all the way home in the taxi.....
b) Say to the casino manager "had a great night, keep my money for next time I come in so I can have another chance to lose it".
If you choose option (b) of course you can always explain to your missus that you know what you're doing because you're not "recreational" you're a "AP" and you know that it's a bad idea to cash out.
What amazes me is all these stories you hear about books not paying out and getting away with it. To me, it's black and white, a bookie is a bookie, and a player is a player whether he is recreational or professional.
Of course, no bookmaker has to accept a bet if they don't want to..... but don't post a line up and refuse to pay out on it because you think you got hit by professional action - you're in the gambling business, if you lose you lose.
To be quite frank I actually find it quite laughable how players are being criticised for their conduct in a rapacious industry run by sharks.
The recent betfair fiasco was a prime example. And despite the "gambleaware" logos in small print at the bottom of bookmaker pages - they know who their best customers are, just like the local off licence/liquor store knows that the town drunk probably accounts for a large portion of their business.
I think we have been here before with this debate and I think there is a cultural difference between US and European (or UK at least) players that US bookies and agents dont understand and bonus abusers dont respect.
I went from UK to US books with a 'terms and conditions' mentality - deposit $x get a bonus of $y and wager it z times before I can withdraw it all and have the positon reset to the start should the terms and conditions all be met.
Over time I learnt that to go back and get the best bonuses you should avoid full balance withdrawals and big withdrawals just after meeting the WR. This is what I do successfully in several US books and I think this makes much more over time than your hit and run US book bonus abuser (great in the short term but not sustanable in the long run). Game therory will always lead to hit and run abusers and it is up to the bookmakers to counteract this (dont offer a bonus or place more restrictions on it).
The US recreational market appears to be more seasonal based. If NFL is your thing then deposit in August and get a bonus, top up in January and get a bonus and then withdraw in February. You then place your bets every week and essentially foget the bonus until the end of the seaon. You put in what you can afford to into one book and so you dont need a withdrawal week on week.
If you are in vegas for a week do you cash in your brick and mortar casino chips at the end of every night or at the end of your stay?
Bonus abusers of course need regular and quick withdrawals to move on a claim the next bonus and every now and again pay themselves a 'dividend'.
Of course as said before the half competent US book will place restrictions on what bonus abusers can do by limiting second and ongoing bonuses.
Where brobury fell down to bonus abuse was through:
a) offering a 10% bonus with a 20 x WR on the bonus (i.e. get through D+B just under twice to meet the WR). With reduced juice you could then bet on -105 middles with another book to help meet the WR of the other (reduced juice) book and have a risk free punt at middles.
b) offering a bonus regardless of previous withdrawal history.
c) having automatic bonuses whereby you can get 50% bonuses multiple times using codes such as MLB50, NFL50, HOOPS50, BROBURY50 etc etc (there are at least 20 of these).
d) having an automatic withdrawal system that allows you to cheat the WR and withdraw before the WR is met or bet the bonus that is to be 'given up.
At the end of the day Brobury failed because its business model was unsustainable but I think we can all be a little bit more savvy when it comes to making money in this business.
It would be interesting hear the thoughts of any US players (kid).
You know its amazing. And I will make this brief since I am not into drama and there is no reason to waste my energy on negativity.
I love the rhetorical comments and the posts on marketing to bonus whores.
Quick fact. I offered the Brobury bonus to help out a friend (Junkman) and to share with you the reputation I had here at the forum and with one of the managers at Brobury.
I never collected a penny from Brobury and never will Still only market one name and one company in the entire Spooky Express family. You can see my websites. Been that way since day one no matter how often other companies ask me to work with them.
I was unaware of any business model Brobury had other than the fact that I had their word that any players brought in would be taken care of.
I dont have an account there and all the points Borussia Teeth brought up are staggering to my imagination. I was unable to see any of that and probably the most discouraging thing about trying to work with any players was the inability to be aware of what was happening at the company. Many of the guys will attest when I had to ask them what they did and when they did it cause I was not able to be aware of that.
Bottom line, I am glad one or many of you find it farcical that I try to share my thoughts when indeed I was really trying to help the forum. Its no sweat on my end although I wonder how many I have assisted over the past year would feel that way here at the forum.
I wish you "bonus whores" all the best and continued success. The circle is round and I know I did the right thing by everyone connected. And always will. And Fella although you are not calling me on the carpet. It happens all the time. I have done that for so many of my players its not funny. So because you may not have been one of them dont dare tell me that many of the guys have been able to withdraw without meeting a rollover. My guys are always taken care of.
Have a great weekend. I am done with this. Next time when you get burned you can just call it a business write off.
Originally Posted by Spooky
I don't really understand what you've written above but for clarity my post wasn't a veiled dig at you, it was a straightforward criticism of certain bookmakers/bookmaking practices. I don't know anything about how you operate TBH, I'm not currently interested in US books so I've not looked at your stuff.
I am not one for getting into debates, however I am in the camp of not withdrawing your whole balance in one go. If you bust then great go back and reload. However if I have a need to withdraw then I will take some out and middle/trade the remaining funds. It may only be a say a token amount ($100-$200) I leave in, but all the same I try to give a book some action.
I have always assumed this is the one reason after X amount of years I have only been limited and denied a bonus at one book (beted). By giving some action to the books I am also able to negotiate at times a better deal than what is generally on offer. It may only be a few % more but it all adds up.
"Bonus whoring" is all great but to take it up a notch it is worth trying to think how a book think's. Offshore books really do have a different mentality. They want you to play. Treat the top rated boys with respect and in the long run you will benefit.
Now I could be completely wrong with all of that, but that is the way I see things and it has worked damn well for me.
Bonus abusers are not welcome here. If there is any evidence of someone doing that then they are removed. That does not mean they dont exist here (or even that they are not common) but if/when caught they will be/are banned.
Originally Posted by Mirage
We only welcome people who stick to the T&Cs.
Brobury closing had nothing to do with Spooky or TGT. They had a major glitch in the software which was (as far as I know) not mentioned on this forum. It was this that meant it was possible to abuse the promotions and it was THAT which cost them serious $s, it was not people taking advantage of one generous bonus each and playing in the spirit of the thing which is what was generally discussed here.
Brobury saw they were making a loss on European players so stopped offering bonuses to them. That is fine it is entirely up to them and a very sensible thing to do, if you are getting into a hole then stop digging.
They have now found they can not cut it long term and it is not worth their time/energy to try so they have sold out passing on player balances to another reputable site. That is fine too and how it should be done.
Have a plan and stick to it
Really tired of hearing this nonsense about Bonus abuse. There is no such thing!! Just smart players.
As for glitches, thats a different thing altogether. But I wouldnt blame anyone who found one, if they went on to milk it for all its worth. It would make up for all the times that they did play by the book and yet STILL got ripped off, and we have all been there. Betfair being the most recent example.
Has anyone who asked for a withdrawal rec'd any money yet? Asked for my balance (less than 4 figures) when the e-mail came out, but haven't seen anything yet.
I'm waiting on Brobury and Linesmaker withdrawals... I have a feeling I'm about to take a hit here
Yes I'm waiting too, put in request on 12th.
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