Doing advantage gambling for someone else?

[Human123]

Have a family friend who wants to get into matched betting but cant handle the maths of it so has said will let me use their details to do it for them and i take a %.


But as far as i can see if the person is a seperate person from a seperate household who opens an account then it cant be a problem?

I can even go as far as going to their house and using their computer if I.P addresses are a problem but obviously it would be alot easier if i could log in via my home laptop.

Just trying to seek some advice before i dive in


Please note i am not advocating Gnoming or signing up multiple accounts per household, many thanks to andy for allowing this discussion

[Andy]

so has said will let me use their details to do it for them and i take a %.

When you say "let me use their details" thats a potential problem as he may say thats OK but im 99.9% sure the bookmaker T&Cs will say no third party can operate his account with or without his consent. Also I am pretty sure when it comes to depositing and generally using his card the bank involved will not allow a third party to be using it without a power of attorney. Because he has said you can do you wont get prosecuted for it (well I cant see why you would), but it is not allowed.

If he has sat at the PC with you at his shoulder, he filled in the details, he deposits the amount you say, you then tell him how much to bet and on what, and he does, then you tell him how much to lay, and he does, then thats all just you giving him advice, thats all 100% fine with everyone. It does pose the question if its in his living room who can actually tell if he was typing the keyboard or you were? Thats up to you to answer.

If you are taking a % of the winnings you are liable to tax on them, his winnings is from gambling and tax free. Your £s are from providing advice, which is a service, and so those £s are taxable. Whether you declare them or not is up to you, but technically, you should.

Also if at any stage you are not paid a freebet or have funds confiscated you wont have much sympathy from many people, if you play with fire sooner or later you will get burnt. Its a risk, but if the rewards are worth it to you then go for it.

[musicbox]

Obviously operating an account on behalf of someone else breaches T&Cs and certainly you go beyond just T&Cs when accessing someone else's bank account/funding methods without a legal provision to do so in place but as practical examples... if your friend's bank were to call to go over some of the transactions, would they know them? If a book asked to speak to them on the phone, would it be very apparent a third party had placed all the bets?

[Human123]

what if a moneybookers account was funded? to get around the bank access problems..

[Andy]

what if a moneybookers account was funded? to get around the bank access problems..

You would have the same problem, you are not supposed to let anyone else use your moneybookers account either. How they would know who is at the other end of the computer is another matter. BUT of course if there is any real fraud on that account, then I think whilst recliaming the money and it being investigated you (one of you!) would be asked "Does anyone else know that log in details" to which the answer is "Yes" and so I think at that point you would not be getting much help/support reclaiming the money.

The whole idea is full of problems, and it is a very very grey area. If you are trying to fully legitimatise it dont bother, you wont be able to. If you could do it with no problems then everyone would just do it. Some people dont care that it is a bit dodgy, think it is easy money and if there are consequences they will deal with them later, and do it anyway.

I suppose if you work out whats the best possible result for you = £X, what is the worst possible result, and the chances of each scenario happening? I dont know your best and worst results, are you a Lawer? Im pretty sure anything seen to be even slightly, and I mean slightly linked to identity fraud/ money laundering and you would be de-barred and the investigation alone would destroy your career. Im not saying it is either of those things, in fact i know it is not, but look at it from the eyes of any "man on the street", what will they see it as? You having a "system", using money on someone elses account, betting, taking a cut of the winnings as cash, it all sounds very dodgy. If I spent X years and Y £s to become a qualified lawer thats a lot to lose.

Im not sure I would be risking my career for it. If I was a university student in a shared house and could go through 5/6 mates using their home addresses all over the country, one a month blitzing every sign up offer going at warp speed, making a few £k each time from my sofa then on to the next one, you have much more to gain and much more less to lose, you would get a slapped wrist at worse, so its more appealing.

It is up to you really whether you want to do it or not. Is it all above board, well I would say "no" if it was we wouldnt be having the conversation you would have just done it. Which doesnt mean dont do it, it just means be aware of the possible consequences. They may be other consequences I have not thought of too, anyone else have some views, it is an interesting topic?

[Human123]

Would you say the only grey area is the whole access to bank accounts/moneybookers?

As i completly trust the person i would be doing it for and i know they would never try and implicate me in anything. i even said i would use my own cash to fund the moneybookers for them. So would be my own money at risk.

Before i do every bookie i will email in advance to make sure i can still claim the bonus so i cant see that part being a problem, if they refuse, they refuse.

I suppose if i wanted to be extra safe i could talk them through which bets to place over the phone and i lay off on betfair?

[Andy]

Would you say the only grey area is the whole access to bank accounts/moneybookers?

I would say it all is, it is against the rules (note im saying rules not the law) to use his moneybookers, bank cards, gambling accounts, with or without his permission. If you do its up to you but it is against the rules.

If it was allowed, within the rules, easy, or worth it, I would currently be doing it. But I am not, because it is not any of those things for me. It is for some people though, it is for some people I am good friends with, but it is not for me.

[GibletHead2000]

So, I was having a chat with a friend over drinks, and we got chatting about how I'd managed to make ~£6k in 6 months from matched betting and casino bonuses. We were talking about how it's been nice, but I've run out of easy bonuses to do (haven't done US books, or the really high WR ones like Titanbet, or sticky casino bonuses) and his opinion was that it sounded a good idea (he's never gambled before) but also a bit scary and complicated.

Later on, he offered me the idea that I could bet on his behalf, and we could split the profits. This is actually not a bad offer for me... I've got quite quick at finding matches, and so on, and have a decent float to kick things off so could blast through a lot of offers quickly.

The idea would be that I take good quality scans of his ID docs, use his address, phone number, and install a proxy on his computer so I can use his IP. Then start all over again using his details instead of mine, all on his behalf and with his permission.I basically work through all the UK books and BJ/VP-compatible bonuses, and then we divvy up the profits at the end.

Is there any good reason not to do this? I can't see how my accounts would be at risk if I'm using a different IP address, and none of the other details are the same.

[Andy]

Things to consider:

When he gives you your cut that is definitely taxable. His share is not because that was gambling winnings. Your cut is taxable though. You are being paid to provide a service so you would need to declare it on your annual self assesment form, which if you dont currently do you would have to notify them and start. I have been told that by the tax office before. (whether you bother to declare it is a different argument)

When actually joining HE would have to sign up and register and deposit and place the bets. You can sit next to him and tell him exactly what to do but he needs to do it. All the forms and T&Cs agreed to state "I agree", ie him! So he needs to click the button. (whether that is checkable is a different argument).

Linked to the above when depositing using Moneybookers you definitely are not allowed to operate someone elses account. If you do then you certainly are not covered AT ALL if any fraud takes place against you (him?) as he gave out the passwords/answers which is not allowed. For a credit/debit card to be used by someone else I think you need a joint account or to have been given express permission by them to do that, contact the bank you are using for details on that. Either way I think any Fraud used with the card is again not covered at all anymore.

Basically giving him one to one advice and help is OK just a little time consuming and you pay tax.

Doing it for him is a lot more problematic (for more reasons than just those mentioned) and would not be advisable. It has known as "Gnoming", it is not worth it.

[GibletHead2000]

Thanks for the info.

After reading your post, I searched for 'gnoming' and found this thread:
http://www.thegamblingtimes.com/boar...eone-else.html

Please feel free to merge. Apologies, that hadn't turned up in my original search.

Yes, I've always tried to comply with the T&Cs rather than attempt something that I thought the 'system' would let me get away with. Hadn't thought it through that if I clicked "I agree", then that's me agreeing and not my friend. I did read some T&Cs from some large sites and didn't notice anything saying "you must not let someone operate your account", but missed that crucial detail about who it was making the agreement in the first place.

The tax argument alone is enough to put me off. Currently my employer handles all my tax issues, and I intend to keep it that way.

As an aside, is it therefore considered problematic (tax-wise) to split a RAF with someone else?