Cheers for the heads up about the 5live thing, was about to download it now to listen on the ipod, crazy coincidence (just read about it in the Sunday Telegraph, Mark Chapman did an article in there on back page of Telegraph - here it is, 'drunk prostitute'?!... Armstrong comes across as a charmer yet again)!
Anyway... re Simeoni, I'll try and find something, I think I put a clip in one of the old news articles on TGT... mmm no it was this thread, I remember searching for something to put in the first post but couldn't find anything obvious apart from a French video clip (it's all French to me though!).
The best place is on Wikipedia I think, the gist of it from Simeoni's page on Wikipedia is as follows:
Pretty complicated in terms of how it started, basically Armstrong could have probably not been involved at all if he'd just kept his mouth shut in the original press conference where he called Simeoni a 'liar' for saying Dr Ferrari was involved with doping. And then for Simeoni to try and sue Armstrong for libel for calling him a liar is also pretty strong, those two obviously didn't get on for quite some time if there was that kind of thing going on.
Feud with Lance Armstrong
More famous is Simeoni's argument with Lance Armstrong
. Simeoni was treated by doctor Michele Ferrari
, who was also Armstrong's doctor. Simeoni testified in court that he began doping
in 1993, that Dr. Ferrari had prescribed him doping products such as EPO
and Human Growth Hormone
in 1996 and 1997, and that Ferrari also gave him instructions on how to use these products.
In 2001 and 2002 Simeoni was suspended for several months for doping use. Armstrong reportedly called Simeoni a "liar" in an interview with the French newspaper Le Monde
in July 2003. Simeoni lodged a charge of defamation
against Armstrong and demanded €
100,000. Simeoni announced that he would give any money awarded to him to charity
On the 18th stage of the 2004 edition
of the Tour de France
, Simeoni gapped up to a breakaway of six riders that posed no threat to Armstrong's leading position. Nevertheless, Armstrong followed Simeoni, which prompted Armstrong's rival T-Mobile Team
to try to catch the breakaway. This would not only catch Armstrong but also eliminate the stage winning chances of the six riders in the original breakaway. The six riders implored Armstrong to drop back to the peloton
, but Armstrong would not go unless Simeoni went with him and the two riders dropped back to the peloton.
When Simeoni dropped back, he was abused by other riders, including Andrea Peron
, Filippo Pozzato
and Giuseppe Guerini
. In a later interview, he told of how Daniele Nardello
also abused him, calling him "a disgrace".
Afterwards, Armstrong made a "zip-the-lips" gesture but later said that Simeoni "did not deserve" to win a stage. Two days later was the final stage, which is usually a slow stage in which the Tour winner (in 2004 it was Armstrong) already celebrates his victory. But in this stage Simeoni continuously attacked, to take revenge for what Armstrong did three days before, but was reeled in every time by Armstrong's team.
Simeoni was again insulted and spat at by other riders after this.
Because Simeoni was a prosecution witness in legal proceedings against Ferrari at the time of Armstrong's move against him in the 2004 Tour, Italian authorities threatened to bring charges of witness intimidation against Armstrong. In March 2005 Armstrong was interviewed by the authorities, apparently without resolution. Armstrong had been indicted by Italian authorities in December 2005 and ordered to stand trial for defaming Simeoni on March 7, 2006. In April 2006, the defamation charges were dropped.
But it does give a good example of how bullying Armstrong was, if he doesn't get his way he likes to intimidate people - whether it be with lawyers issuing veiled threats against people's safety or whipping up the peloton out on the road so that they spit at Armstrong's detractors. The guy obviously has influence, surprised he didn't run for political office (I'm sure he probably would have done if this hadn't blown up).
EDIT: after listening to (half so far!) of that 5live documentary, I think it was the Basson episode that sticks in my mind more than Simeoni, I can remember watching that year when the whole peloton ganged up on Basson to close him down (I think I got confused between Basson and Simeoni), was completely disgraceful when you know what exactly happened (it's around 50-55mins into the documentary).
EDIT2: there's another good documentary that was on ABC in Australia just yesterday here:
45mins, can watch it online (actually haven't watched it all yet but the first 5 mins sounds promising, v similar to the 5live but with a few different witnesses/talking heads (including Phil Liggett apparently who anyone who watches cycling will know about)).
Last edited by munk; 16/10/2012 at 16:08.
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lance armstrong is a hero, to strip him of all his titles despite never providing a dirty sample depite hundreds and hundreds of clean tests is obscene
even if there was a video of a needle in his arm with some drug written on the syringe id still say he was clean
if you didnt catch him in your testing, then you cant strip him
to me this is akin to convicting of murder and executing a man based on hearsay with no body or dna evidence, absolutely crazy
what this guy has survived is inspirational, and whether he cheated or not doesnt botherme
the tests say he was clean, and regardless of what the record books will say everyone will still know he won 7 consecutive tour de france titles
This is basically it. He could afford the experts and drugs to boost his performance & cover up the use. He wasn't just taking EPO, it was blood transfusions, steroids, saline IV solutions to cover up the drugs to pass tests & all sorts of stuff that cost money and needed doctors and many other people involved.
Originally Posted by Eddie
The report is far to long to read (nearly 200 pages!) but the parts I've read are pretty damning.
Near the start of the report is a story of a postive test for cortisone in 1999 and how they scrambled a Doctor to write a back dated prescription saying he needed it for saddle sore! That's what he had that others didn't.
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Lol. I love the power of your belief, even if it seems to have tainted your reasoning.
Originally Posted by mikehunt
I'd love to believe in Father Christmas still, but it doesn't mean those days are coming back.
The whole period just makes me feel sad, just like Baseball in the 90's and early 00's. Both sports had (have) an endemic problem with PED's, and unfortunately will forever be tainted, and marked with a great big asterisk when evaluating and comparing results with other eras.
Was Lance the only user? 'Course not. Did he benefit from better drug technology than others? There's a damn decent argument to make here.
I've loved Cycling since seeing Claudio Chiappucci (later outed as another drug cheat) dancing on the pedals in 1990. Cycling has always had a problem with doping, and cheating in the Tour de France is as old as the Tour itself. The last 15 years just seems to have seen this increase to a massive degree.
Your argument about DNA evidence doesn't stack up either. There are plenty of crimes that end with convictions that have no DNA evidence. 11 testimonies from witnesses alone will get you places.
I have no cross to bear with Lance Armstrong, infact I loved it those times when he was at his most 'in your face', like on the Alpe d'Huez in 2001. As Munk says, he definitely comes across as sometimes an abrasive personality/ a born winner (at all costs). I think this era in Cycling is about 5 years behind Baseball. It needs to go through this 'outing' of our heroes, just like Baseball needed to do so with Sammy Sosa, Big Mac and Barry Bonds. Cheating will likely always happen, but hopefully not at the levels seen in the recent history of both of these sports.
Heard on the news tonight that Nike have officially dropped out of their partnership/sponsorship with Armstrong which is quite significant given the way it was done. They said just 1 week ago they would be standing behind him 100% only to do an embarrassing U-turn today with a statement along the lines of 'in the face of incontrovertible evidence we've decided to call it a day' etc etc.
Nike disassociating themselves from Armstrong is also huge because of their steadfast backing of him from all the way back before he had cancer (10-15yrs back) and the massive Livestrong foundation tie in as well which was basically Nike+Armstrong through and through. So with that in mind, for Nike to come down against Armstrong like they did (apparently saying that they are disappointed that he lied to them for the last 10 years or something like that) is quite a huge deal.
Also today apparently Armstrong has officially stepped down from his role as Chairman of the Livestrong Foundation to try and protect it from any blowback.
Another update - Livestrong celebrated it's 15th anniversary yesterday with Armstrong giving a speech about how these days are tough, but he's been through tougher. First thing that came to mind was Scientology for some reason... just the tone of his words and his demeanour, I doubt he will ever admit to doing anything wrong, he has such incredible self belief. (I edited this last sentence a little, it all sounds very cynical but really the circumstantial evidence is just ridiculous isn't it, he has to have effectively brainwashed himself to continue to deny the charges?)
In other news(papers), in the Times sports section today there was an interview with his ex-wife Kristen. She stopped short of saying that he did it, but said along the lines of 'he did it'(!) (she was apparently implicit in a lot of the doping). I'll get the article if anyone wants it but basically she said along lines of how she was bound by legal stuff / mentioned the 'marital right to silence/not perjure oneself' but overall gave the impression that he was a doper.
If they "all" were at it, and I know it wont have been all but it does sound like more than just him, he was still the best cyclist of that era. I could have all the extra blood transfusions in the World pumped full of anything you want, I still wont win the Tour de France. I would not even be able to finish it. He was the best. He won.
I think he probably did it, I just dont see it as "cheating" as such. Actually thats stupid it was against the rules, so of course it was cheating. I cant explain why I think he should keep the titles. But I do.
Have a plan and stick to it
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Andy this assumes that the effects of doping are consistent across all cyclists where as in reality they can be very different. Although I agree I also struggle with banning an athlete that has never failed a test (the cortizone one aside).
Rio Ferdinand was banned having never failed a test....just having failed to turn up to a test.
Originally Posted by JudgeJules8165
Remember, Remember the 04th of November 2010 – the day Interwetten died
Remember, Remember the 24th of March 2012, the day TGT won the Scoop6!
That's true, Christine Ohurugu also missed a few tests and got banned I think. Strange that in cycling you could just not turn up (or hide according to reports), where as other sports would ban you for missing tests.....or maybe thats just because its more recent.
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