"BetJoint vs TGU" = Account closures
There is a summary of what happened here:
The Gambling Times | Viewing Article "Betjoint vs TheGamblersUnderground"
I have tried to answer any questions people had and also have left out anything that could not be proved or there was a dispute over. There was not much of an argument over the facts though, that is pretty much what happened and argreed by all.
The only question left unanswered that i can think of is "How do we stop it happening again?".
A) From now on there will be greater checks that the bonus only goes to the people who should have it.
B) I will be more involved and speak to the relevant sites myself as well and explain the situation to them, what threads/posts/contests they will be linked to and make sure that is not a problem.
C) No Portuguese player will ever under any circumstances have anything to do with TGT and are blanket banned from recieving any bonuses from us or forum specific promotions from us.
Any other thoughts?
Have a plan and stick to it
I would quite like to know what information there is regarding the Portugese connection. I know we had problems with the Portugese gambling site / forum user skilos and it was rumoured that he tipped off Betjoint that a lot of people were making hay by sharing arbs publicly. I don't understand why he would want to tip them off though (or even if it's true)?
What exactly happened with him anyway? Was he responsible for large scale abuse / multiple accounting? Is there any more information about what he did that you know of and can share publicly Andy? The good people of Portugal would probably like to know why they're blanket banned (give em skilos address whilst you're at it ).
The situation was made worse by BetJoint identifying a problem but assuming all accounts were in on it and not differentiating between them but seeing everyone in the same light. There were a lot of Portugese players and a certain internet forum poster “Skilos” (who is a Cretin) which caused a lot of trouble and if I had been aware of what was happening sooner things would have been very different.
made for an interesting read - i wasnt involved so only knew some of the bits but i think the best answer was mentioned in the article.
Make an invite only/post count related private section - though im not sure how much of a pita that would be.
You could maybe have a thread on the main board with the basics to let people know whats been offered
Then in the private area you would have the more relevant info/sign up links and other associated threads only available to who ever is (could be?) allowed.
I dont know if its possible on here but on another forum i remember different sections automatically opened up once you had a certain post count etc (though generally they were pretty dead - would a whole section for one site hidden away take up much bandwidth etc?).
Maybe you could add an admin only thread where people taking up in the offer in the private section submitted there username for the site so you could see and pass on those allowed with out it being visable to everyone but admin or even just stored for if the p00 hits the fan so its to hand and not a have to sort after.
On a football site i post on, there is the main site for football discussion and a lounge section which requires 250 posts before you can gain access. I'm not sure how feasible that would be here though.
I think this is a good idea, it seems to have worked well with the recent private TGT poker tournaments which seemed to be generally populated by TGT regulars. Not too many Portuguese anyway.
Originally Posted by GlobalSquare
The creation of clique might upset those who are not part of it, especially because there would have to be an arbitary cut-off point relating to number of posts, number of thanks, etc. However I think it is the most sensible option, even if it means that I am personally sidelined.
So, the creation of a bourgeoise elite is my suggestion.
This is probably already known but just in case... whilst posting here on your special offer threads (Betjoint and Heroes) and apparently using your links, Skilos was advertising an affiliate page contained on a Portugese site (agarrados.com, registered to a Joao Carvalho) which had bonuses to both Heroes and Betjoint. The actual direct wesite was apostascertas.com also registered to the same person. Skilos claimed to have been a visitor to MSE for the 6 months prior to signing up in December (same month as here) giving the reason for being a visitor and not a poster as his lack of English... clearly not an issue when you see his posts. It appears strange that he would use sign up links here when he could have signed up through the Portugese site he was happy to pimp. Whenever affiliate money is involved, you may always get some rogue person tipping off against another affiliate I guess (if that's what's being inferred here).
Originally Posted by munk
As an addition to the "Portugese theory", there's a user at MSE who tried to sell their Betclick account "worth" 190euro for 120 euros because they couldn't validate the account having already got one with the same book... apparently they were also selling it because they were quitting MBing (yet continued to MBet thereafter). The name is bizarrely similar to a shortened form of the above registrant... dun dun dun!
Thanks Andy, makes very interesting reading. My first US bookie and useful experience for me from many angles!!
From my own experience the checks by Heroes were clearly more thorough than Betjoint's and didn't require much effort.
One potential problem with having a minimum post count to qualify for access to restricted sections or specific bonuses is that it might encourage pointless posts. Could anyone cope with another 150 lots of my ramblings in a short space of time (or lots of "well said mate, thanks for the post").
The betjoint and HC offer was my main reason for signing up here - they were both very good offers.
I asked at the time whether I could take part as I had 2/3 posts and a couple of days since sign up. I think it was Kid who posted at the time 'well no-one who has asked for the bonus has been declined'. So i did and needless to say got the bonus. Lost fairly heavily at bj and never got closed down (they were still offering me bonuses a couple of days before being taken over) & had zero balance to transfer to BM.
So I guess I probably fall into the category of shouldn't have had the bonuses - if there had been any actual checks made. (just to be clear - single account only and no p*sstaking - except a betting pattern which would be hard to consider 'recreational')
- is I think a very good summation of the problem. Maybe a sale was already in mind and the promo was just a quick number boosting exercise but they weren't really prepared for what they were letting themselves in for. Never really been that convinced of big numbers of multiple accounts - and this is part of the risk management a book should be prepared for anyway.
BetJoint gambled that they could get the player numbers up without taking too much of a hit overall
Its interesting that a book feels the need to 'stay under the radar' with large money transfers - easy to forget the shady nature of some of these operations. Mark Roberts sounds an absolute charmer from the quotes!
Anyway - would it help to make logging in to the forum necessary to be able to read content any easier to police/monitor (rpoints style). Might cut down on lurkers and give you data on users ?
Interesting read indeed.
So it's the portuguese fault they closed all the accounts. Andy, did you ever ask your contacts at betjoint what was the percentage of portuguese accounts through your link? And the percentage of other nationalities? English for example?
Portuguese players are a minority here or in any bookie comparing to the UK players or many other nationalities. Do you really think one person (in that case Skilos) wether he was chinese, iraki or english, could have closed all our accounts just by sending a mail to betjoint?
I'm portuguese, I did the betjoint (I had my account closed as well) and the heroes bonuses through your links and I am very offended with your words. Discriminating a whole nationality because a problem YOU had with a bookie just to ignore what was wrong is completely ridiculous.
Creating a topic with arbs between 2 books gives them all the reasons to close the accounts whenever they want to according to any T&C. Do you think it's a coincidence that Betjoint has been taken over by Bookmaker soon after that incident? They probably had some difficulties and opening the forum they found a great way to close all this "bonus baggers" accounts before loosing a lot of money since a large number of players were wagering on the same lines.
If the main reason was multiple accounts, can you prove it was done by portuguese players? I'm portuguese and had only one and you can find a lot of posts here or in other forums "suggesting" some members have more than one account with some bookies.
Regarding musicbox's post, I know the portuguese site you refer. They had a betjoint offer pretty similar to this one but their promotion ended soon after this problem. It proves Betjoint was ending this kind of promotion for every affiliate.
In my opinion, you should recognize this problem was YOUR fault and you should clarify with the sites you deal with what kind of forum you have that can easily be confused with an association of players or a forum explaining how to abuse bonuses (in a bookie point of view). It's not like it's a forum of recreational players when you have arbs threads.
Doing that you won't need to find excuses and blame the evil portuguese.
Munk: Thank you for the respect and maturity you show in your posts.
EDIT: One more thing, it's PortugUese and not portugese
I dont want to get this off track but i feel the need to reply to that
-Is it all the portuguese players fault? ... reading the article no .. but they caused enough issues to be a major part even if a minority (why did no other minority country get mentioned) - agreed?
-For a single player to get singled out ('Skilos') wether he was chinese, iraki or english must have been brought to Kid's/Andy's attention .. who by? betjoint? agreed?
-Its a blanket ban not discrimination ... does the above not point to you that a miniority gambling country some how managed to cause a load of trouble to make it unworthwile for future promotions?
--- and im sure if you know this forum that any 'real contributor' from portugal would most likely be included in future promos by just sending a pm to andy before hand
--- this is one the best, most hands on forums out there not just in gambling circles and i honestly believe they would do there best by any legitimate members
-the how to thread (wasnt just arbs) on the main forum was probably not a great idea looking back and that was pointed out as an issue to so your right there and it was said in the article to so irrelivant saying it again
-You might have been a ligitimate portuguese player ... but for a single country to become an issue for betjoint and tgt out of all the sign ups what does that say to you?
--- do you see greece,germany etc mentioned? so you must presume there was something happening with a fair number of portuguese accounts no?
-Andy knows things have to be done differently if only to cover himself when the bookmaker doesnt do checks (from what ive read heros atleast checks a bit harder) ... thats the reason for this thread, its not here to discuss who did what and when at betjoint
-as for the portuguese being evil i dont think anyone believes that or claimed that ... but a large % of the portuguese sign ups obviously caused some big issues or do you really not get that feeling at all?
Sorry for replying to the above and taking it off topic and away from the 'how to stop it happening again' but i felt the above was almost close to claiming racism and from what i know of this forum i dont think it is (i wouldnt use it if so) and im pretty sure the flexible nature of Andy Kid etc would have seen regular real portuguese contributors being allowed to take part with just a pm
also while in this thread might aswell add
-you could maybe ditch the main arb thread to
-- it maybe averages two posts perday over time?
-- it maybe just attracts non sign ups who just read it
-- any relevant infomation in it could be found homes in the appropriot associtated threads
Tags for this Thread