underlaying and overlaying

[triplea]

Hi.

Now I get the theory of this but dont really get how it works.

Now for example, tonight I wanted to bet on the reading/burnley match. SR/qualifier of £100

Now Im expecting reading to win ( odds were 1.80 at bookies ) and lay ( odds were 2 at betfair ). I would rather not lose such a big amount on the lay bet at BF ( but happy to bust out with a lesser amount ) so I take it Im underlaying???

Im using the JHMATCH v1.25 spreadsheet ( from MSE ) which includes underlaying and overlaying odds. Gives me the following -

At standard odds

At odds of 2.0 you should lay 92.31
Liability of this lay 92.31

Profit if bet wins -12.81
Profit if bet losses -12.81

( so I see a loss of 12.31 ) and get 87.69 back

I understand this no problem

Now it says if I was underlaying

At odds of 2.0 you should lay 80.00
Liability of this lay 80.00

Profit if bet wins 0.00 ( now lost )
Profit if bet losses 24.00 ( see above )

Is this just bad wording and how much would I be expecting back? Or is there a better spreadsheet?

Sorry for long post. Hope this makes sense and anyone can let me have this in laymans terms....nearly f****d up big time just now

Thanks guys ( and gals )

[Pokebus]

Your figures are correct, but I only under-lay in the following situations:

WR at book with poor odds.
WR at book where I expect a forex loss on withdrawal.
WR with minimum odds of 1.5 or below, and I can't be arsed to find a good match.
Bookie with tote odds.
Bets at long odds.

That said, I've yet to come across a book where I had to settle for 1.8/2.0 though, that's dreadful. My upper limit for a dodgy match like this is odds of 1.5, that's just me though, I've come a cropper a few times, but I knew the risks.

Under-laying is more fun with long odds, you sacrifice a little probable profit for a small chance of a big win. Over-laying vice-versa, but this is more usually employed for bonus-on-win offers.

If you have a play with that calculator, you'll find that the losses if you are unlucky get worse as the odds get lower, although of course the probability does too. My comfort zone is around 1.5, but it's your call.

It works the same way with the attempted no-loss under-dutch too. Put £100 on at 1.8, your winnings would be £80, so you bet £80 on the other side irrespective of the odds. Those odds, however, determine what you lose if it doesn't go your way.

[Andy]

I dont know about the Spreadsheet aspect at all. Why are you underlaying, as in what are you trying to achieve?

I underlay to give an eventual better ratio of £s returned to hours spent. Any win into betfair is given a higher worth because there is nothing else to do, it is forgotten about there and then, NEXT.... So i would be happy to set it for say +£10 at BookmakerA or +£5 at Betfair, i want an extra £5 profit if im having to spend more time on it. Sometimes it may turn out to have been just as easy withdrawing from BookmakerA as a win in betfair but sometimes it can be a huge headache and they average out as a general rule that a win at any bookmaker make sure you are compensated for.

I also underlay because it can be more profitable if an offer has a wr you expect to slowly lose on as you complete.

It is more fun to watch the match/game/race that way if you have a big win on the outcome.

It takes into account the risk involved at unknown/untested sites where i would rather not lose too much and want to keep my betfair liability down.

I dont think you would have to take lower odds matches vs betfair in order to do it, 1.8 vs 2 is pretty bad, but if I HAD to bet on that, maybe i was going to watch it, then yes i would underlay it a lot. You can still underlay exact matches and arbs if you want to.

[triplea]

It was to complete a WR that would take more than one go to be honest. Knew the likely outcome so didnt want to lose too much ( but then I suppose thats gambling! )

Also just wanted to know how to do it. Played around with the spreadsheet and eventually worked out the wording, and as you say it can work out awful if your lay wins

Thanks for taking the time to reply

[s0095063]

Hi triplea, Pokebus and andy are much better at this than myself, and there is little i can add in way of specific advice.

What I will say is that it took me a while to get my head around the concept ( a bit like MBing did at first). But when you begin to understand it, it becomes second nature.

I guess i learnt mainly from using the bet365 4/1 offer, which can invlove small overlays. I took me ages to get my head round the offer though. There is no real substitute for giving it a try really, and that's the best way to learn.

I also took on 1 or 2 bookies before i had figured out underlaying properly and lost most of the bonus as a result.

[Andy]

Knew the likely outcome so didnt want to lose too much ( but then I suppose thats gambling! )

Why the frown? Gambling is great fun! Try it you might just like it. As long as you only gamble what you can afford to lose then who cares about the losses. And you would have to really REALLY try hard to actually have real losses if you use sensible staking plans and use betfair and bonuses to hedge the risk.

Its a risk/reward trade off, take more risks and make more money and probably have more fun

Thanks for taking the time to reply

No problem at all. Lots of people will have different thoughts and ideas, there is not right or wrong and the contrast is what makes life interesting.

[heartofglass]

Interesting reading guys. I have in the past tended not to underlay at long odds because I am expecting the bet to lose and want every penny I can get at Betfair - but in hindsight it makes sense to underlay a bit. The three situations in which I currently underlay are:

- if I am hoping to bust out of a book in one bet but if I do win at the bookies I will have to work through a large WR
- if I think the bookie is at all dodgy and I may have trouble getting my money out of there if I win
- to cover for currency exchange costs