I don't think it's right that they have taken your money especially as it isn't clear in there T&C's, but wonder if it's because you have made quite a few deposits & withdrawals in a short period of time. If I'm reading the statement right you deposit, make a couple of bets & then withdraw it all, maybe that's what they don't like. Even if this is the case though it's not right to just take your money, it's not clear in their T&C's & as someone said above they could of giving you the option to place some more bets before withdrawing rather than just taking your money!
That doesn't take into account the large spreads that Betdaq have, much larger than Betfair for the majority of markets - their 'business model' is to lay off their liability with other bookmakers, the spread + commission makes up their profit and from that they absorb the costs of Moneybookers fees (along with all the other costs like staff etc).
Originally Posted by Super_Dash
It's obviously a business decision for them to accept that they will absorb the cost of Moneybookers transactions and pass those costs onto the customer in other ways (as I said above, in the spread+commission primarily). Most European bookmakers are the same and it's very rare for them to require the customer to pay the fees on Moneybookers transactions (except in the case where someone deposits and doesn't wager, in which case some books (quite fairly IMO) will charge you if you withdraw).
Resorting to using a tactic like has been applied here is pretty unscrupulous and most definitely not sustainable - once people hear about it it will effectively the same as them saying 'we charge 2% for Moneybookers payments' and so a lot of people won't bother using that method to deposit as long as there are other cheaper alternatives.
Yes that's what I meant / suspected, if that's the case then from their point of view obviously they've seen you win a lot of money, not pay a lot in commission (either real or implied) and now you want to withdraw and it will cost them to process it. But as I say above that is their business model, it's how they've chosen to operate and they should accept it. Yes they haven't made the money from you, but who's to say you didn't accept a really poor spread when you took the bet? They could/should have layed off your bets at another book / across the global betting exchange network for a tidy profit and if they do that consistently (and they must do otherwise they wouldn't be in business), then there's no need to charge for Moneybookers fees that they incur on behalf of customers because they've factored that in.
Originally Posted by kamoon
Exactly, that is the business model they've chosen to go with and it's the same one most Euro bookies go with. The US facing books mostly charge for Moneybookers transactions one way or another, but the key thing is that they make the charges explicit and (on the whole) don't hit you with some unfair charge that you weren't expecting. If it happened in any other line of business they'd get rapped across the knuckles for by their regulatory body, unfortunately as we know the gambling trade isn't always fairly regulated - but having said that in this case I would have thought the negative publicity they would get for the sake of a few quid just wouldn't be worth their while.
I agree with what has been said that I did not pay enough fees to cover the Moneybookers deposit fees supposedly 2% or 2.8% for Betdaq. I could've not known how much it is for them and I didn't think I have to care about it. They have set the rules (free deposits and withdrawals), not me. I did everything in my power to obey those rules and did not try to take advantage of them at any point. If they don't want me as a customer because I am unprofitable to them, or for any other reason, they can close my account whenever they please and return my money to me but they just can't go and take the money. After all, it is my money.
Good luck anyway let us know how you get on.
Yesterday the CS told me that the Operations Manager would reply to me today by close of business but I have not heard of him. I'm getting impatient and I am already preparing my dispute to the IBAS and will submit it if the reply from the Operations Manager doesn't give me back my money.
Got a response from their Operations Manager and it's their final stance that they will not give back the money they took.
I will submit a complaint to the IBAS.
My apologies for the delay in getting back to you but I wasn't in the office until late today.
The terms and conditions relating to the Moneybookers promotion have been available on the site since the promotion began. There is a clear indication on the big red banner on the main deposit page stating that terms and conditions apply. It is the responsibility of each individual member to ensure they understand what these terms and conditions are. If you were unable to find them on the site you could have contacted the helpdesk to enquire as to what they were, and we would have gladly assisted you.
You may withdraw your current balance of €1,444.81 should you so wish without penalty, as the moneybookers deposit fees totaling €65.65 have already been recouped. BETDAQ are unfortunately not in a position to to refund you for these fees.
If you are ever unsure as to the amount of Moneybookers fees incurred, you can calculate it as 2% of total successful Moneybookers lodgements to your BETDAQ account. If you wish to confirm the total amount of fees incurred versus commission earned in a given period before you make another withdrawal you can contact the helpdesk and they'll be happy to assist you.
Thanks for your understanding.
Kamoon, I have to say I'm pretty surprised at the Operations Manager's responses. Not only is this a matter of €65.65, it is a situation which can be easily resolved. Now that the fees have been removed from your account, wouldn't it make sense to offer to re-imburse those funds once you've generated your commission? If that is their issue, let you remove that issue.
Beyond authorities, forums or whatever, the simple reasons why I think they should want to resolve the matter rather than continue in this manner is because they have to take some responsibility too;
1. Binding terms should be in the terms and conditions area, not exclusively in the help section (as appears to be the case). Regardless of a person's view on your situation, how can any 'term' which allows the ability to remove funds from a player's account not be in the official binding terms and conditions section? In this instance, it makes sense to put them in section 5. of their terms relating to Member Accounts.
I do believe they have a right to protect against particular things as I have said but in no situation should something in a help section be expected to override an official term (or override the non-existence of a term in this case) which could lead to removal of funds from a player's account. It would not happen in other instances - imagine a "*terms and conditions" banner on registration that linked to nothing and there was no mention of any registration issues in the terms. You join and have a winning bet only to be told "You're in the UK, we don't allow UK players - see our terms in the help section!" No, not good enough. Companies refer to their official terms and conditions to protect against a whole host of things printed elsewhere on the site - and rightly so. But it has to work both ways.
2. It's simply not a serious point to expect customers who see a red banner saying "*Terms and conditions apply" to look in a help section rather than the terms and conditions section. Nor is it a serious point to expect customers (potentially thousands) to contact Betdaq to find out what the small print terms are. It's their promotion; promote it properly and fairly. I can't really think of a better way of wasting the time of your customers and your staff to opt to have customers contact the company instead of clicking on a banner which links to terms written for all to see (easily) in the proper terms and conditions area.
3. And not only are the terms not in the correct place, it also cannot be expected that customers know the ins and outs of Moneybookers charges to merchants - his explanation of how it is calculated is fine but it's after the event and, by default, shows customers do not know this.
All this could have been avoided:
Terms should be in the correct section, linked to from the banner to avoid being perceived as doing a 'small print' trick on customers.
Before ever removing funds from a player's account, the player should be advised and, where possible, a resolution sought before creating a situation. (Also, don't put something in your terms alluding to contacting players where possible when charges will be incurred if you aren't going to folow through in reality.)
If someone is truly abusing a site, post resolvement of that bet settlement/general issue, close the player's account - can you really claim they abused the site (which allowed you to remove funds) AND leave them to be a customer when it suits you?
Finally, if someone can simply be advised of a problem and that problem can be fixed by both parties in a reasonable manner without complaints and threads like this being created across the internet, do it!
I respect the chap is doing his job and, in the end, none of us know just how many things he's dealing with and what the reasons will be for every single decision, but do feel free to link them to this thread because we're Betdaq users and I'm pretty sure none of us want any complaints about something like this. If you can accept that their intention (to not allow people to generate fees beyond commission is valid as a business decision) should be upheld and to show willing to just earn that difference back by using their site (not saying you've agreed to this but my suggestion would be this), then I really would hope they can meet you halfway in an agreement that re-imburses you the funds once you've done so.
An 'operations manger' typically is there to oversee the policies and procedures that are in place, and often does not play a part in forming and changing those policies and procedures, so it's perhaps not surprising that this individual is confirming that the people behind this action were following the correct procedures (as laid down to them). A more senior manager may be necessary to decide that the procedures are wrong.
We can hope that more senior management are even aware that this bad publicity is unfolding from this crazy implementation. However, this may not yet be the case.
I can't believe this. Not giving me a chance to generate enough
commission to cover the Moneybookers fees is just utter bullshit and
theft. I have written a complaint to the IBAS and British & Irish
Advertising Authorities and I also contacted the Trading Standards
Institute. I will continue to pursue for the money for as long as it
takes to get my money back. I will also write about this to every
gambling forum I can find in the Internet to inform your customers
about your arrogance.
> Mr xxxx,
> My apologies for the delay in getting back to you but I wasn't in the office
> until late today.
> The terms and conditions relating to the Moneybookers*promotion have
> been*available on the site since the promotion began. There is a clear
> *indication on the big red banner on the*main deposit page stating that
> terms and conditions apply. It is the responsibility of each individual
> member to ensure they understand what these terms and conditions are. If you
> were unable to find them on the site you could have contacted the
> helpdesk*to enquire as to what they were, and we would have gladly assisted
> You may withdraw your current balance of 1,444.81 should you so wish
> without penalty, as the moneybookers*deposit fees totaling 65.65 have
> already been recouped. BETDAQ are unfortunately not in a position to to
> refund you for these fees.
> If you are ever unsure as to the amount of Moneybookers*fees incurred, you
> can calculate it as 2% of total successful Moneybookers*lodgements to your
> BETDAQ account. If you wish to confirm the total amount of fees incurred
> versus commission earned in a given period before you make another
> withdrawal*you can contact the helpdesk*and they'll be happy to assist you.
> Thanks for your understanding.
> Kind Regards,
> Phil Tomlinson
> Operations Manager
> -----Original Message-----
> Date: **Saturday, June 19, 2010* 06:52 PM
> I did not know I took part in any promotion when I made my deposits. I
> thought deposits are normal transactions in gambling and not a
> promotion of some sort.
> It would be impossible for me to click through and read every signle
> page in Betdaq site to be able to find the particular terms you're
> referring to or any hidden fees that I may have to face. Why wouldn't
> you just include them to the Terms and Conditions on your site is
> beyond my understanding.
> Anyway, like I have said before, you have failed to notify me prior to
> taking the money out of my account as per your terms and this makes it
> theft in my books:
> "There may be costs relating to the transfer of funds into or out of
> Members' Accounts which, wherever possible, will be notified to the
> Member in advance of his/her agreement to proceed with a transfer
> May I withdraw the rest of my balance of 1,444.81 from my Betdaq
> account to my Moneybookers account or are you going steal more from me
> if I make a withdrawal? However, I want that you process my full
> withdrawal of 1,510.46. If you fail to do so I will make a complaint
> about Betdaq to the IBAS within two days. If IBAS is unable to help me
> I will continue to pursue my money with the help of other institutes.
> I have already filed a complaint with Sportsbookreview and I have made
> some forum posts to alert other gamblers about your behavior in these
> forums below. I'm planning to continue to spread the word as we
> players can not know about the fees Moneybookers charges you and
> therefore we don't even have the capacity to calculate whether we have
> paid enough commission to Betdaq to cover the deposit fees that you
> have to incur.
> Beware of BetDAQ hidden withdrawal fees - MoneySavingExpert.com Forums
> Betdaq stoles me 575! - Sports Handicapping, Betting & Picks - SBR Forum
>> Mr. xxxx,
>> Thanks for your email.
>> Please refer to the 'Deposit by Moneybookers'*section of the Help page on
>> our website. You will note that clearly displayed in the sub-section
>> entitled ' Free Fees' is the following:
>> Unless otherwise stated in the deposits page on the web site, BETDAQ
>> absorb the cost of all fees subject to the members total commission paid
>> being equal or *greater than the cost of the fees.
>> We reserve the right to charge customers who are deemed to be abusing
>> offer the full rate.
>> BETDAQ reserves the right to withdraw this offer at any time, without
>> prior notice
>> It is the responsibility of each individual member to ensure they fully
>> understand the conditions*of any promotions they take part in. As such, we
>> are not in a position to refund you the 65.65, as this represents a cost
>> incurred by us which we reserve the right to recoup as outlined in the
>> aforementioned Terms and Conditions.
>> Thank you for your understanding.
>> Kind Regards,
>> Phil Tomlinson
>> Operations Manager.
>> -----Original Message-----
>> Date: **Friday, June 18, 2010* 05:27
>> Hey again,
>> Just to add this in your terms and conditions which is the only thing
>> I can find even closely related to what you're doing now:
>> "There may be costs relating to the transfer of funds into or out of
>> Members' Accounts which, wherever possible, will be notified to the
>> Member in advance of his/her agreement to proceed with a transfer
>> Why wasn't I notified as per your terms before you removed the cash
>> from my betting account?
>> On the deposit page I can see "All Neteller and Moneybookers deposits
>> are now free!" with "Terms and conditions apply" but clicking on it
>> leads to nothing. I have confirmed from other users that they cannot
>> find the "Free Fees terms and conditions" from your site either.
>> Please, proceed with my withdrawal of 1,510.46 EUR
>>> I have filed a complaint with SportsbookReview. I want my withdrawal
>>> of 1,510.46 EUR processed to my Moneybookers account in full and
>>> without deductions. I have never seen the terms and conditions you are
>>> referring to before and I can't find them on your site. Also, you send
>>> emails that state:
>>> "0% fees on all "Moneybookers" and "Neteller" transactions *
>>> No hidden charges!"
>>> Not to mention that in your Deposit & Withdrawal page it tells "Charges:
>>> And yet there seems to be hidden charges. I will take this into
>>> account the next time I deposit with Betdaq to make sure that I
>>> generate at least as much commission as the Moneybookers fees but this
>>> time I was completely unaware of these charges that you had to incur
>>> and you should've at least given me a warning before taking the money
>>> from my balance.
>>> If I will not receive my money in full to my Moneybookers account, I
>>> will next make a contact with The Independent Betting Arbitration
>>> Service, Advertising Standards Authority, The Trading Standards
>>> Institute or even the small claims court if that's what it takes as I
>>> feel I have been mistreat.
>>> Please, do not make matters worse for either of us.
>>> As I have placed most of my bets as "Lay" there can't be as much
>>> commission generated as if they would've been "Back" bets. Lay bets
>>> need a larger amount of money in the betting account because of the
>>> higher risk involved. Because I had risked my entire balance at least
>>> for once each time before asking for a withdrawal I honestly thought
>>> that it would be sufficient.
>>> Hoping to resolve this matter,
>>>> Please put the 65.65 back. Had I known there would be such a
>>>> ridiculous fee, I would've not tried to withdraw the funds.
>>>> I did not know about your 2% Moneybookers fees.
>>>> I will continue betting and try to generate the 65.65 in commission
>>>> rather than just hand it out to you.
>>>> Also, I'm trying to browse the T&C's but can't find this clause in
>>>>> Dear Sir,
>>>>> Many thanks for your e-mail.
>>>>> From the 1st November 2009 when the free Moneybooker Fees were
>>>>> introduced,*you generated*21.51 in commission, however*you incurred
>>>>> in money booker fees* (4,358.20 @2%)
>>>>> Therefore as per Our terms and conditions we have*made a manual
>>>>> to your account*of**65.65.This adjustment can be seen on your account
>>>>> Free Fees terms and conditions:
>>>>> Unless otherwise stated in the deposits page on the website, BETDAQ
>>>>> absorb the cost of all fees subject to the members total commission
>>>>> being equal or *greater than the cost of the fees.
>>>>> We reserve the right to charge customers who are deemed to be abusing
>>>>> offer the full rate.
>>>>> BETDAQ reserves the right to withdraw this offer at any time, without
>>>>> prior notice
>>>>> If I can be of any further assistance, do not hesitate to contact me.
>>>>> Kind regards,
>>>>> Customer Service Executive
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> Date: **Friday, June 18, 2010* 09:53 AM
>>>>> Why was my withdrawal of 1,510.46 rejected? I just tried it again as I
>>>>> cannot see a reason why it would be rejected.
Steal my funds, close my account. Business as usual at Betdaq.
Please note that we have terminated your account with BETDAQ as per the terms and conditions set out below:
9 Suspension and termination
We reserve the right to refuse to register an applicant or to suspend and/or terminate a Member's registration and Member's Account at our absolute discretion and with no obligation to provide Members with any reasons for so doing.
Without restricting our ability to rely on other remedies that may be available to us, we will suspend or terminate Members' Accounts or cancel any unmatched offers at our absolute discretion if: (i) we suspect that Members are acting other than on their own behalf or otherwise in concert with others or engaging in illegal or fraudulent activity while using the BETDAQ Services; (ii) we suspect that Members are breaching any terms of this Agreement; (iii) we suspect that Members are acting in a manner that is detrimental to the conduct of BETDAQ's business; (iv) we suspect that Members may be having difficulties obtaining credit; (v) we suspect that it is illegal for a Member to participate in the Exchange, (vi) we are unable to verify registered address or contact telephone number, or (vii) we are required to do so by law.
We regret that we are not in a position to discuss this matter with you any further.
Customer Service Manager
"Pay no attention to what the critics say. No statue has ever been erected to a critic."
wow indeed. What the hell are betdaq doing? I hold betdaq up as being a banker with regards to holding my funds. By that I mean safe, like betfair, ladbrokes, william hill etc. As opposed to other places like betonlive, betboo, jetbull who I'm happy to gamble with but really would want to be withdrawing from if picking some winners.
Their behaviour with regards to your case kamoon is awful and they must know many of their other customers are reading. My usage of betdaq should never be a problem as I rarely withdraw. In fact I tend to bust out and top up again.
I hope you get a happy result. Reading this hasn't made me walk away from betdaq and I am still using them but I have my eye firmly fixed on this thread.
Keep us posted, and good luck!